Product Adoption Is the Only Health Score That Matters — Michel Hayet

I think it's actually the most important asset. The most important asset, well, two, relationships and people, because people exist not within a company, but usually within an industry. The place where they work within that industry is fluid. As much as we like to say that we're loyal to the place we work in, we're in 2026, we're not our parents' generation anymore. We're not going to retire in the same place where we started our career. If you can't stick around with the company or the client, as a client, you want to make sure that you created somewhat of a rapport, a relationship with the end user, which is where a lot of the adoption play is. Almost every customer retention play that I've seen is built around the account, the actual logo on the website, the 30-, the 60- to 90-day check-ins, the quarterly business reviews, the whole choreography of customer success.

But the account, the logo, may actually be one of the least durable things in the deal. The actual people underneath that logo, the stakeholders, the faces on the other end of the Zoom meetings, the other end of the tables at conferences, they change jobs, and champions get promoted out of an organization. Leaders disappear or change hands. A new CFO could show up tomorrow, and the budget or the renewal agreement that you're just certain is going to close is gone.

So my guest today is Michel Hayet. He runs product marketing at WSC Sports, which is the automation behind most of the sports highlights that you've watched in the last 15 years. And before that, he spent four years at AppsFlyer. And before that, he even co-founded two companies of his own. And his perspective is that we're building retention around the wrong unit. People don't belong to companies, they belong to industries. And almost nobody today really, if you think about it, stays at one company for very long, but they may spend their entire career within one industry.

So Michel knows that the person running content for a sports team this season may be at a new network in three years, and that's not a problem, and actually could be an advantage. What he wants is that when they go to the new network, they take his product with them. And so today's conversation is about retention at both ends of the market. Michel has experience where the first customer, the first five customers, he knew by name and was able to shake hands with and had a deep knowledge of the accounts. Now he's working at a hypergrowth organization in sports technology where the first client was the NBA. And so he has a really unique frame on what it means to have a product adoption motion in the product marketing organization or in the success organization. So I asked him, I said, "What does adoption mean to you? How do you test it?" And he said, "The test is simple.

Ask yourself, if we disappear tomorrow, would your customers' lives actually change?" Because products are interchangeable, solutions are hard to replace. So this is another episode of "Scaling Trust." I'm your host, Matt Tidwell. Let's get into it. Michel, welcome to the show. Hi, thank you for having me. How are you doing? I'm great. I'm so grateful that you're spending some time with us on a Monday. It's a big day for you. You've got academy launch going live today, coming back from the weekend on a Monday. So, you have enough on your plate, and I so appreciate you spending time with me and with our listeners. So before we jump right into it, I would love for you to set the frame for the audience that's listening here, in that you have a really unique journey. I think most folks have a unique journey in how they get to where they are in life, but you have a unique journey in that you're a multi-time co-founder. You're working inside of one of the largest media companies, media technology companies for sports now. And would you mind just setting the frame for the rest of the show today as far as high level of your journey? Absolutely. It's a story that's always fun to tell because I find myself retelling it and rediscovering details on the way upon retelling it. So yeah, Michel Hayet. I've been at WSC Sports for the past three years, basically building the product marketing organization team within WSC Sports across the last three years. I started my journey officially, like the point where I start telling my story, is about 10 years ago. At around 2015, I started my first company, my first startup, along with my partner, Shahar. We both started Ludius Media, which was a very fun operation within the ad tech space. We created an ad-serving solution for hosting video ads across mobile and desktop. We've done that for three years, and then we kind of had a passion project that we wanted to pivot towards, which was Moments, which was kind of a mutual storytelling creation platform, which is a mouthful. But was kind of a personal passion project of mine that I kind of got my partner to tag along for. And we were right at the point where we were ready for a pivot, so we started going off towards that. It was basically a platform where writers, musicians, artists of different trades could come and build stories together. And I'm saying stories and not books, because the idea was to build multi-layered experiences that eventually can turn out to be a multi-experience kind of creation, whether it's a TV show, a movie, multi-dimensional kind of creation that eventually all participants share the profits of through smart contracts. We've done that for about a year. We couldn't find funding, so eventually that closed off a period of about four and a half years where I started two companies, then I closed two companies, which is like, for those who've done it, feels like saying goodbye to your kid. But it set the stage. It basically got me to a point where I understood what I wanted to do in life, which led me to a company called AppsFlyer, where I started my journey as a product marketing manager. I found product marketing specifically to be the closest equivalent to being a founder or a creator or an entrepreneur within an organization. You get to work with multiple teams, multiple stakeholders, multiple functions within an operation, find value in each, deliver that value, kind of as the middleman within the organization to a lot of places. So you're capable of building solutions, identifying problems, much like an entrepreneur, and then bringing them forward to the solution space. I did that for about four years at AppsFlyer. I ended up being a senior product marketing manager there, and then I came to WSC, which is the sphere I'm in right now, and, yeah, that's pretty much where I am right now, and like you said, it's a big day for us. We've been working three years to build what product marketing is at WSC Sports, pretty much, and today we're officially launching our client academy, which is basically, for those who don't know WSC Sports, we're the market leader when it comes to sports content automation. If you follow sports and you've watched the highlight reel anywhere in the past 15 years, I want to say, WSC Sports probably had a hand in that, by enabling sports organizations, broadcasters, teams, leagues, federations, clubs of different kinds, different sizes, to take the match footage and through very sophisticated AI, we've been doing AI before AI was cool, by the way, slice that footage up by attractiveness, by appeal factor of that play, whether it's a goal, a three-pointer, a touchdown, whatever it may be. And the academy that we just launched today basically took the fact that we've been the market leader for this space for the past 15 years, and now we have, first of all, an official certificate for our users to basically take forward to LinkedIn to showcase to their employers, first of all, that they're taking their job seriously, that they want to be proficient and professional in what they do. And the most advanced tool in the market today, they went ahead and went through the process of becoming professionals in it, adopting it well. This is the signal to do that. And it's a big deal for us, basically, to basically make sure that our clients get the most value out of the platform solutions that we want to put forward. That's incredible. And anybody that's launched an academy knows how much sweat and tears and heartache and back and forth and all of that that it takes to actually bring into the world. And so kudos to you and your team for launching it. That's exciting. So I'm super pumped that I get to join you on this day. It's like we're across the world from one another, but I'll celebrate with you.

Thank you. I appreciate it. It is a big day for us. And don't get me started on the sweat and tears.

Well, I love how you framed the role that you're in now, and you're like, "It's the closest kind of spirit to being an entrepreneur within the larger organization." And I think that that rings unbelievably true to me, having done the rollercoaster up and downs of small business life, startup life, funded life, and anywhere in between. It's like there's seasons to it. And I think about seasons a lot now. And in your perspective, for early-stage companies, where do those early teams, those founding teams or the first 10, 15 employees, where do they stop thinking about just acquisition? Immediately, it's like, "We have to survive. We have to feed the machine. We have to get new companies, new logos, new relationships, new partnerships." So it's like so much is on demand generation and introductions and referrals and all of that. But what is the tipping point in your mind where those companies start to focus on the post-sales operation, the retention operation, the success operation, the adoption, as you framed it? At what point in your mind does that introduce conversation? Do you do that, is that customer number one and two, or is that much later in the cycle? Do you have any kind of frame for that? I like using metaphors. So the best metaphor for that, and let's imagine this 10 to 15 employee company, startup. You went through the road of being an entrepreneur, and you know how big the first client through the door feels.

The last thing you want to do is to see that client that you worked so hard on getting go out the other way through the back door because you didn't put the foundations in to keep them around for well enough. And the reason why I said I like using metaphors, it's like building a boat with a built-in hole in it that the second you get in the ocean, the water comes in that will eventually sink you. I'm not saying that the product marketing function should be the first hire. I'm not saying it should be the first marketing hire. I'm saying it should be the second probably. Because a product marketing function is there to, first of all, by trade, by nature, by the role, see all of the different elements and how they connect. Product connecting with business, connecting with account management, even before it exists. Because you want to be able to support the accounts, the clients that you're bringing through the door, even before the first account manager is in, because likely, when you're a startup, you're playing on the entire field. You're doing all the roles. The CEO will likely be also the account manager, and the CTO will be the product manager, and that's the fun part of being in a startup, obviously. But product marketing is there a lot of times and the term product marketing can spread across multiple functions, depending on the needs of the company, basically.

But they're there to make sure that they're attentive to the holes that might open up within the boat that you're building. If possible, block them even before they open up, and put in the foundation in order for the boat not to sink — to sail safely and for the longest period of time that the product can support. When people ask me what product marketing is, initially when I came into WSC Sports, I said either a detective or a gap identifier. Our job is to find gaps, find inefficiencies, and find creative ways to solve these inefficiencies with the right infrastructure.

That rings true. And I guess early on, as you mentioned, you get to wear multiple hats, and some of those first clients are people you know on a first-name basis, and you've talked to them for weeks, months, years. Maybe you've known them in previous roles as well and things like that. So retention is very relationship focused. It's very person to person and I feel like those early founding teams, it's their word on the line. It's like, "We'll fix this. We'll get this done, or we'll get this implemented to make this work." There's a lot of personal stake in that, and I feel like there's a tremendous responsibility during that phase.

Do you see that shift? Or do you see anything that occurs at that early stage that just doesn't scale, and you have to create systems around it? What did you do maybe as a founder with early customers that you can't do at WSC just because the scale and the scope of the operation is so different? Yeah. I think these are two very different animals, basically, because WSC is around 700 employees. When you're a two-guy operation looking to growing to four, you have, first of all, a lot of flexibility. You can close the loop pretty quickly when it's just you and your partner or you and two employees. Decisions are made in a snap. Obviously, you have to be strategic about it. This is not me saying that these are practices that I very traditionally applied as an entrepreneur, because eventually I closed the two startups that I built. So these are a lot of lessons that I learned along the way or things that I would've maybe done better had I had the chance to run these companies today. I think that part of the beauty of being a startup is the fact that your clients, like you so nicely described, they're so intimately connected to you and you know them by name. They have a direct channel to the top decision-maker in the operation that they're working with. So any request becomes an official product request, and the product for future clients that will come along will probably be defined by that first client. When I look at WSC and the comparison between the two, and I try to circle back in history to the days when this company started, and part of the beautiful thing of being in this company is that there's a rich history to dive into. First client was the NBA. And when the NBA determines, they have pretty high standards. And how we got the NBA to be client number one, that's a story for someone else to tell from the founding team, but I wish I was here those days. But when the NBA, with their standards and how they look at the sport, the business, their fans, their fans are top priority, by the way. When they set the standard, everybody that comes along after enjoys that standard. And when you look at the growth of WSC and the massive scale that we're at right now, we're number one by far. Tier one sport organizations are what we take pride in, but tier two and three, these could be leagues that you never heard about, leagues that exist within Europe, Eastern Europe, Asia, Africa, with a fan base that wouldn't even tickle an average or bottom table NBA team. They enjoy the same standard as that NBA team, and that's the beauty of it. And that's if I had to draw the line between being startup phase and being so connected intimately to your clients at that stage. And what benefit you see from it, if you bring in the right client, and a lot of times that's not a question that we can ask, "Who's the right client at this point?" You just want to get number one in. But when you get the right design partner, the right first client in, and they help you set the standard, and every request from them is being analyzed and scrutinized, and you see the value of it, long term, it's going to pay off, because eventually, when you're big enough, the smallest client coming in can potentially enjoy these insights, the point of view of a top client that is very cooperative and holds itself to a very high standard. I hope I was clear in that. I don't know. No, you were, and it's actually a really interesting frame. That's something I thought about in the build versus buy conversation. So many organizations now, as you mentioned with AI, so many organizations now are having conversations like, "Do we license the third-party tech? Do we build it in-house? Can we sustain in-house now?" And those sorts of things. But you just highlighted a really interesting dimension I hadn't thought about in recent conversations, which is the exposure of the company that you're licensing. Like you said, you're benefiting from all the previous learnings, all the previous ups and downs, good and bad. Yeah. And then all the previous scale that others have to operate at. So you're benefiting from the demands of organizations many, many times larger or many, many times smaller sometimes than you. So yeah, that's interesting.

I think when we first met, I was thinking product marketing, and I was thinking demand and pipeline and things like that. But you said something really interesting in our first conversation together where you focus intently, it seems like, on product adoption, and that is kind of like your gold standard in a way. That's your North Star. Has it always been that way for you? Is that maybe part of a perspective or a frame that you brought from like, "Hey, we've got to build this and make sure people don't leave," or keep it sustaining? Or did you learn that somewhere? Or is that a frame that you carry from somewhere else? I'm really curious because it feels like it's a unique frame that you bring to the product marketing lane. It was very much a journey for me to find that KPI that I was looking for that much. Mm-hmm. I'm very proud in the "school" that taught me product marketing and what it is, which is AppsFlyer, before I even came to WSC. And one of the questions that I found myself keep asking myself repeatedly when taking my first official steps as a product marketer was: how do I measure success? What is even success? And that question can get different interpretation and different answers depending on the type of product that you're trying to promote. If it's a growth product where you don't have enough users yet, adoption is not the answer. The answer is upsell or market awareness, or it can be a different stage of the marketing funnel. But any product company has a product, and if it's sustainable enough to hire a product marketing function, like I said, in my opinion, should be hire number two within the marketing tree. It has existing clients that bought a product. Usually, it will be the core product, the one that was the initial idea for why do we want to build a company.

And if you have that, then adoption is usually the first KPI that you want to keep in mind, because regular marketing, awareness-raising marketing, content marketing, all that other functions that every marketer across the board, or let's say full stack marketer knows how to do, that will get done. But then if you want to take on a KPI to single out for product marketing, it would be adoption, because let's go back to the question that I asked myself initially. How do I measure success as a product marketer? I have a product, and I have users for that product. My way of affecting the bottom line of the company, because no matter what story we want to tell ourselves, eventually that's what our managers are going to look at.

The way to affect the bottom line is, A, set account management, sales, whoever it may be that's responsible for it, for success when it comes to upsell or retention conversations. And that only comes in when the clients actually use the product that they paid a lot of money for. That's adoption. Or make sure that water is not leaking out of the boat, meaning customers are not actively churning. Churn can be downgrading from an upsell product that they were convinced to buy, or not using the product anymore, and it's not part of their day-to-day, and it's not the first thing they open when they open their laptop. When that is where your product is placed, the unfortunate news is that you're a product. You're not a solution that solves their day-to-day problems. Products are interchangeable in 2026. Solutions are hard to replace. I can take away a lot of stuff that you're probably using in your day-to-day when you pop open your laptop. There will be a point where I reach a product, a solution that is so fundamental to how you operate. It can be your email, it can be your Slack, it can be whatever. Everybody has an idea now when they're listening on what that is. There will be a point where I reach a product that is irreplaceable. That is where you want to be, and that is product adoption in my eyes. And when you have to set the standard for what is success, that is product adoption. And then in every company, it gets a different interpretation. It's a different KPI. You measure it differently. I can't compare the amount of content that a monster like the NBA is creating versus mid-tier Spanish soccer team is creating. Because first of all, there are different amount of games. They might not have a skilled employee behind the keyboard to produce as many content pieces. How do you measure KPI in this space? There has to be a metric. A lot of the work that was put in from the first day that I came to WSC was how do we put everything on one scale and measure apples to apples? Compare every apple to apple. So that's my take, my point of view. All right. Just for a quick break, if this is landing at all, please take a moment and follow the show just by clicking subscribe wherever you're listening, whether it be Spotify or Apple or YouTube. That's the one free thing you can do to help this show continue to grow, to build with others, and to help find new people. All right. And so with that, I will get us back to the interview, back to the show. That is a really high bar to set for the frame of product adoption. I like it. I like it a lot, actually.

I'm thinking about when I open my laptop, the 50 tools that we've tried this year that we've all that we've sworn to do different things. Or I feel like at one point, people collected Notion templates. That was the thing everyone used for lead magnets. Like, I have this new irreplaceable Notion template that will change your life. And then now it's Claude skill files, I think. I think we're just sharing skill files the same way. But I think about there's probably three tools that make my day run, and how much noise is in front of those three tools. That's interesting. So the art of minimalism. There we go. Shed your crap in life. You don't need much. It's a nice practice to have in the back of your mind. Am I using a tool right now, or is it a solution that I can't be ripped away from? Mm-hmm.

How do you think about that? You said something else, too, around upsells and cross-sells and churns even moving down. How do you think about the success and adoption in a multi-product suite? I'm assuming WSC has multiple tiers or multiple products or multiple modules, things like that, within the overall core solution.

How do you think about adoption? How do you think about success or retention then once a customer's on multiple products? Do you track that as kind of one health score, or are you tracking that per product? How are those things going? Any insights you can share with folks that might be entering an organization that has multiple product lines or multiple solutions that are sold to the same account? Of course. Yeah. Understanding your product is step number one, what each product is. Even though it might be the most important thing for the product manager or product unit that created that product, some products are there just as an upsell, just as an add-on. Some products are just a feature, meaning they enhance something else that already exists, and you need to treat them accordingly. Not all products are made equal. Not all of them are relevant to the same ICP. And when you start creating that logic, which is a wonderful process to go through in and of itself, because it kind of throws you into conversations and strategy of how we want to position this versus how and to whom we want to position that. You create some kind of a structure that eventually makes sense, because some products will be defined as core, some products will be defined as add-ons or nice-to-have or upsell or efficiency enhancers. And then you create this kind of layering system where you start making sense of everything that your product department starts pushing out. And churn could be immediate, absolute churn, meaning if we lose clients within this product, then they leave us altogether, or it can be they can still scale back from this product, and we might still keep them around and might be able to open up the conversation later on throughout their lifecycle. Having high adoption in this product would signal an indication for a possible upsell in product X. Or, if they're happy with this, then this is probably a signal that they would want to retain. Because each and every product has its own characteristics. And if you break down those characteristics and understand how they correlate with your user base, with your client base, you can create a lot of insights in terms of what insights you can drive from the adoption KPIs, from the health score. By the way, health score is a lot of times being labeled as adoption because the two correlate. It's a very strong indicator of that. So you have to take all of these into consideration, and then whatever decision you make is based on the numbers that you see in front of you. Mm-hmm. I hope I answered the question. No, you did. And I'm curious as a follow-up there.

So when you're framing the value and the ROI of a particular product within a suite where account managers are delivering that, are they building those value stories per product line typically, or are they building it as an overall story? Maybe in your particular instance now, do you happen to have insights into how that value of each product within the suite or the value of the overall account is told? Of course. Like I said, what I said is based on actual practices. When I said what I said, I had a very clear idea of what product I'm relating to at that point, because some products within our scope, they hold their ground in terms of creating value to client segment X throughout by providing ABC solutions. Others might not. Others might not be relevant to others. We shouldn't be trying to push this product to that kind of segment of our audience because it doesn't stick. They're not going to stick around. They're not going to have enough content to fill that product up with enough value for their fan base to really enjoy and acknowledge the value of it, which eventually is what it is. We say fuel the fandom. Eventually, if it doesn't correlate, we care about not just our clients, but our clients' clients, because eventually we're B2B2C or B2B2F.

Fans at the end of the road, if they don't see value in the content that our clients create and the content experience that we can put at the hands of our clients, then we did something wrong along the way. Whatever it may be, this is where the detective hat is coming back, and we need to kind of investigate, understand, and fix as much as possible because maybe we sold the wrong product to the wrong guy. Hmm. That's actually a really-- I want to pull on that thread for just a moment. So, I think about this a lot, especially in, I'm sure this is true in sports, it's true in healthcare, it's true in cybersecurity, it's true in probably every industry. It's like your health score, your daily active users, all those sorts of pieces of information coming into our screens and our dashboards and all the things that we think about on a day-to-day. It's like all that can look good and the account still leaves, still walks away. It could be change in leadership, could be change in regulation, could be change in whatever. I think about that a lot because I see it more and more. It's like users love using the product or the platform, and it's like, but things at the macro level have changed. And so it's like, how do you think about, I guess, do you experience that? How do you think about overcoming that? Or is it like, are there relationships that you in the team are trying to choreograph to hedge against that? Are there insights? Is it just the wrong fit? How do you think about churn in a world where people are logging in every day and all the scores are green? How do you think about that? I think it starts from the most important asset. The most important asset, well, two, relationships and people, because people exist not within a company, but usually within an industry. The place where they work within that industry is fluid. As much as we like to say that we're loyal to the place we're working, we're in 2026, we're not our parents' generation anymore. We're not going to retire in the same place where we started our career.

So you want to, if you can't stick around with the company or the client as a client, you want to make sure that you created somewhat of a rapport, a relationship with the end user, which is where a lot of the adoption play is. You create an amazing experience within the platform. You communicate with them in a way that they appreciate, that you're not shoving pop-up messages in every step of the way. You're not bugging them. You take them into consideration. You empathize with them. You put yourself in their sneakers, in our case. And this is where a lot of the academy play that we started off with actually plays a very big role because that certificate that you get at the end of the road after you finish that academy course is something that while you might not stick around with that employer all across your lifetime, all across your career, this is a signal to the industry that I know how to work with this. I would love to bring that tool with me to the next place where I work with. Most likely, statistically, they already work with us in our industry, but never mind. It just shows them that, hey, I know how to work with this anyway. Then you're that much more likely to take that skill with you there. But it's also a signal that this user cares about working with this product well enough to show to the market that they're proficient in it, they recognize the value of it, and the next move they make, they'll take you on with them. Because tools usually, and you know this probably as someone that's moved from one company to another, you usually come in with an idea of, okay, I really like using Slack for this kind of thing, and I really like using Monday for this kind of thing. And usually, when the question comes up, you say, "What about Monday? What about Slack? And did we try implementing those?" Asana is a product that I love using. I try to bring that in here at WSC because just love the product experience there. And I like giving compliments to amazing product experiences. If there's a product that I love using as a PMM, in my core, I feel like that I have to bring up their name because they deserve it, because I feel that they put in the emphasis in caring about me as a user, in caring that I have a good experience to maybe stick around more, to maybe take them along with me when I go to the next company I work in. That's my point of view, at least. I love that. The way that you framed not users within a company, but users within an industry. I haven't heard anyone say it quite like that before, and in my mind, it shifts the thought of investing in success, like investing in a user's success with a product or investing in the adoption of the product, in that it's so much longer of a play if you frame it that it's almost like an absolute. It's like, well, it's imperative that people learn how to use the tool well, excel at using the product or the platform well, deliver value with our product well. Because not only for the account they're in today, but the account they're in five years from now, we want to be the value story that they tell on our behalf, so we don't even have to necessarily sell that company. It's so much more of a mature way of looking at it than the framing that you hear a lot of on LinkedIn, which is take it or leave it. But you'll hear a lot of retention conversations and things on LinkedIn, but there's a maturity in what you said there, and I don't want it to get lost, which is the relationship with the individual can outlast the relationship with the account or the organization if you do it well, if you play the longer game versus if you are treating it as the account level. I think that's why it's super smart. So today is academy launch day, and that means so many things. One of the things that I think you have the benefit of is your platform, your product, your company solutions are likely already on the job description of the hires that other companies want. They want someone who knows how to leverage WSC, I'm sure. So I think you win whenever it's like, we need someone with this credential, and that's in the job posting. I think you've made it. I think that's the definition of making it in customer education. Aside from delivering the credential, what was the core business problem or the core argument that you made for launching an academy? Because you've had academies at other organizations as well. What was the pitch? What was the core problem you were trying to solve, and then how'd you get that signed off? So it all goes down to the previous question you asked of determining the golden KPI, the North Star, adoption. You can reach adoption through multiple ways. We've been trying to hit that KPI with different launches that we did, and when I say launch, I don't mean a product launch, I mean a product marketing launch, meaning introducing another element within the client experience, not even the product necessarily, that would make their experience delightful. That's how I defined it back then.

And I mentioned offhand the pop-up experience that all of us know from different products. We used to have historically a pop-up based product on top of our product that would create user journeys and stuff like that within the platform. But, and this is where empathy comes in. I asked us as a team, and myself, when does a user usually open up WSC, the platform, the arena? They pop it open probably five minutes ahead of game time. They probably have something that they need to get done. The last thing that they want to see right now is a pop-up, because it doesn't consider them, where they are right now, what they need to get done. There's a message there. And the worst thing even, that we didn't consider them, and nothing is worse, but there is something worse, they will likely close that message because it annoyed them. Already a bad experience. And that message will never be seen again because it's just the nature of it. So we went ahead and we tried to find a different solution. A different solution that would make sure that these messages are less intrusive, that they're there in a personalized feed that you can always circle back to and check what was there you may have missed. There are still the occasional pop-ups because there are things that we're trying to communicate and create awareness for, but we're trying to be more gentle with it. We're trying to be much more strict with ourselves to make sure that only upon value creation moments can we allow ourselves to put that forward and not make it as a default. Once you are strict with yourself, with the product team, with the logic that I just described, you find it much more beneficial because you're not spamming your most valuable asset, which is your users, and they're very much your most valuable asset. You're being mindful about them. You're empathizing with them. And again, empathy. I can't stress this word enough. You have to put yourselves at the shoes of the end user, of the client, of the person that you're trying to talk to at that moment in time through whatever marketing initiative that you're trying to publish. Empathy is maybe the most important skill as a marketer, not just a product marketer.

Yep. I love that. And I guess you have a unique frame to be able to give advice. Maybe the last question we can wrap today is, if you were advising an early-stage company, we're in founder, co-founder land, and they've just got their first customer, they've just got their fifth customer, whatever that story is, they're early in the game. What advice would you leave those early-stage companies as it relates to your particular expertise in product marketing, product-market fit, adoption? What advice would you share with those teams today? It would have to be find a person, a champion, a close contact within that one client, within each of those five, that you invest in, that you build a rapport with, that you trust their answers when it comes to the relationship with them as a reflector of the company that they work in, of the position that they play within that company, and be their best friend. Talk to them as much as possible. Not just business talk, even try to avoid business talk, to be honest. Understand who they are, how they're wired, what they like following, what kind of topics do they like, where do they like experiencing those topics. Michel, thanks for sharing some time with me today. I know you have a million things going on, on launch day, so I'm so appreciative that you took a couple of minutes to share with me and with folks listening today from wherever they are. So, I wish you all the best success on the launch in the months that follow hereafter. And, I hope maybe in the future, in the near future, you can rejoin us and tell us how great the launch was and how much of a difference it's made what you've seen now that you've launched it. I'll make sure to drop the links, all the relevant links here as well. And then if there's something special I can drop for the Academy too, I'm happy to do that, Michel. So, thank you so much. With that, have a great rest of the week. For folks listening at home, we'll see you next one.